Diaper Diva was fit to be tied.
We stopped for lunch at the Clam Bar on the Montauk Highway. I noticed it first: note on the menu blackboard and in the menu as well that said: A condition of service at the Clam Bar: all children must stay in their seats.”
Frankly, it made sense to me. The Clam Bar is an outdoor restaurant with umbrella tables and a bar just off the Montauk Highway. There is no fence or any kind of partition between it and the highway. I figured that the stipulation had something to do with their insurance policy and the fear that a car might come barrelling into the dining area.
Ducky, Diaper Diva’s 3-year-old sat in her seat while we ordered a delicious array of lunch specialities — lobster salad served in a fresh tomato, grilled shrimp on greens, clam chowder — but while we waited for our food, Ducky got off her seat and played on the ground near the table.
Diaper Diva went to get something from the car and a young waitress came to the table and told me that “you better move your baby. The owner is here and he’ll have to throw you out…”
Nice.
I told her that my sister was on her way and she would put Ducky back on the chair. When Diaper Diva returned I told her to get Ducky.
“It says it right on the menu,” I said.
“Have you ever heard of anything so ridiculous? I’m sure there are fights here every day. Ducky wasn’t doing anything noisy or dangerous she was just sitting a few feet from the table playing with pebbles,” she told me.
Then Diaper Diva pointed at some other children who were walking around.
“What about them? Maybe they should be kicked out!!”
Personally, I thought she was going a little overboard. But she did have a point. When a waitress came by two more times to tell Diaper Diva to move Ducky, an argument ensued.
“It’s totally ridiculous. You have no right to tell me that my child has to sit in a chair.”
“It says so in the menu,” the waitress said.
“So what are you going to do?” my sister countered.
“We’ll have to throw you out.”
Diaper Diva was incredulous. While she ranted, I noticed that waitresses brought bowls of water for the many dogs that had accompanied patrons. But they seemed to have very little tolerance for kids. The note written on the menu sounded like legalize; a condition of their having insurance, perhaps.
It’s the first time I’ve ever encountered such a request at a restaurant. How about you? If the Clam Bar is doing it for safety reasons why don’t they say so in a nice way. If they’re doing it just to be child unfriendly…
They’d never tolerate it in Park Slope. That’s for sure.
Chandru, is psychiatry considered a legitmate science in India? Because here, it’s not. Most people look at psychiatrists as either fake doctors (like chiropractors), or plain old co-dependent frauds. Either way, it’s not worth responding to Lofreddo’s babble. It never makes a lick of sense.
Peter, if indeed our son D. is in danger of becoming a Bush/Cheney wannabe, please send me you tel# so I can enroll him in an intensive de-narcissification program. I see the error of our ways. Mea culpa. I will relay this horror to the 210 million Indian parents who continue to do as we did.
Dear “ejr” and “chandru” – In response to your question: “Did letting him sleep with us the first 2 years pave the way for his future narcissism?” Yes. The kind of “security” through symbiotic bonding that you are talking about that gives a child confidence in separation is indeed supposed to occur in infancy. I never said having an infant sleep with its parents was a problem, but but a toddler is another story. When a child is “toddling,” it means nature has provided it with the means for initial independence, a signal parents are supposed to listen to.
In response to this question: “Besides, aren’t we all ‘narcissistic’ to some degree?” Sadly, yes. But make no mistake, narcissism is a serious problem that weakens self-esteem, prevents full adult intimacy and results in people objectifying others as mere sources of supply for one’s ego needs. (Take a look at our current administration in Washington for a typical result.)
Finally, in response to this: “Parental over-involvement may be detrimental, but it’s better than the opposite.” No. It’s not better. It’s exactly the same. A child who is neglected and a child who is overinduged end up with the same symptoms of abandonment later in life.
I have to take issue with Peter Loffredo’s comment, too. Just because some of us are raising our children in a different way than P.L. is raising his, doesn’t necessarily make us any more “narcissistic” than even P.L. himself, or our children “future narcissists”. The comment about parents letting babies sleep with them seemed particulary narrow minded. We let our baby sleep in a crib exactly one day before taking him to bed with us and making all our lives more peaceful, easy and natural. He was a very contented infant, and I agree with Chandru (my husband) that it’s a strange cultural norm that has a newborn infant off in a crib — or worse yet another room, complete with baby monitor, when babies and parents are often happier with the ease, comfort and security that sleeping together provides. Did letting him sleep with us the first 2 years pave the way for his future narcissism? I believe that kind of security paves the way for kids being able to separate and “grow up”. Perhaps it’s unrelated, but our son has rarely exhibited “separation anxiety”. Other things, yes . . . But the point is really that even a therapist might not be the ultimate authority on how we should raise our kids. Besides, aren’t we all “narcissistic” to some degree?
I am so sick and fucking tired of people spouting off and judging parents on this website. And always, ALWAYS, breaking out the narcissistic call (for both parents and kids). If the parents are too strict, they’re turning their kids into robots. If they allow a little more freedom, they’re bad parents. Here’s the deal. Kids are kids. They make noise, they giggle, they get antsy and sometimes they knock shit over. Deal with it. If you don’t like kids, don’t live in Park Slope. I’d say the same to anti-semites, homophobes and dog- and cyclist-haters. Wrong neighborhood for you, honey. Move to fucking Boca if you can’t be a little more understanding of kids AND their parents, who more often than not are doing the best they can–which, from whay I see every day, usually means doing a pretty commendable job.
oops, I always forget that this blog puts your comment at the top
what? my children knew how to sit in a chair at a table when they were three. I used to say, “do you see anyone else in the restaurant acting badly?’ i also explained that although they were fortunate enough to go out to eat so often, there may be a person next to them who does not or is celebrating a birthday or special event… that we needed to respect everyone in the restaurant. Aren’t high-chairs for children that have not yet mastered sitting at a table? When my children were three they each sat with a napkin in their lap, ordered politely for themselves, kept their elbows off the table, broke their bread to eat it, waited for others to be served, used the utensils properly, etc. They were and continue to be (as young teens) complimented for their manners. They have many friends that hold their forks like cavemen/women, do not know how to behave in resaurants, put their hands in their water glasses and are awkward with waiters/waitresses. Why is it that poeple think that children cannot do such things at an early age. They learn very quickly when it is important to the parent. Very few children are ever shocked by an outlet but learn very quickly that it is off limits. But then again, look at the example of this mother who made a minor scene and was disprespectful of a powerless waitress- important lessons. The child will remember her mother’s behavior long after the story of the Clam Bar’s policy have faded and will remember that he/she was at the center of it. The arguement will be pointless when he/she is on a first date chewing with an open mouth.
what? my children knew how to sit in a chair at a table when they were three. I used to say, “do you see anyone else in the restaurant acting badly?’ i also explained that although they were fortunate enoiugh to go out to eat so often, there may be a person next to them who does not or is celebrating a birthday or special event… that we needed to respect everyone in the restaurant. Aren’t high-chairs for children that have not yet mastered sitting at a table? When my children were three they each sat with a napkin in their lap, ordered politely for themselves, kept their elbows off the table, broke their bread to eat it, waited for others to be served, used the utensils properly, etc. They were and continue to be (as young teens) complimented for their manners. They have many friends that hold their forks like cavemen/women, do not know how to behave in resaurants, put their hands in their water glasses and are awkward with waiters/waitresses. Why is it that poeple think that children cannot do such things at an early age. They learn very quickly when it is important to the parent. Very few children are ever shocked by an outlet but learn very quickly that it is off limits. But then again, look at the example of this mother who made a minor scene and was disprespectful of a powerless waitress- important lessons. The child will remember her mother’s behavior long after the story of the Clam Bar’s policy have faded and will remember that he/she was at the center of it. The arguement will be pointless when he/she is on a first date chewing with an open mouth.
what? my children knew how to sit in a chair at a table when they were three. I used to say, “do you see anyone else in the restaurant acting badly?’ i also explained that although they were fortunate enoiugh to go out to eat so often, there may be a person next to them who does not or is celebrating a birthday or special event… that we needed to respect everyone in the restaurant. Aren’t high-chairs for children that have not yet mastered sitting at a table? When my children were three they each sat with a napkin in their lap, ordered politely for themselves, kept their elbows off the table, broke their bread to eat it, waited for others to be served, used the utensils properly, etc. They were and continue to be (as young teens) complimented for their manners. They have many friends that hold their forks like cavemen/women, do not know how to behave in resaurants, put their hands in their water glasses and are awkward with waiters/waitresses. Why is it that poeple think that children cannot do such things at an early age. They learn very quickly when it is important to the parent. Very few children are ever shocked by an outlet but learn very quickly that it is off limits. But then again, look at the example of this mother who made a minor scene and was disprespectful of a powerless waitress- important lessons. The child will remember her mother’s behavior long after the story of the Clam Bar’s policy have faded and will remember that he/she was at the center of it. The arguement will be pointless when he/she is on a first date chewing with an open mouth.
Peter, I’ll put a ;) next time I write a facetious comment. Btw, are therapists allowed to say “ugh?” ;).
I also suggest you look outside your (I assume) Western sensibility and check out how many cultures let their children sleep with them for a year or two; it’s better for them and their parents, there’s some evidence it minimizes SIDS (apparently rare outside Western cultures) and it’s just a better bonding experience. Parental over-involvement may be detrimental, but it’s better than the opposite.
Glad your childhood was happy and non-traumatic, can’t say the same about mine.
P.S. To “chandru:” I actually had many family vacations as a kid, and regular sitdown family dinners every evening, etc., etc., but my parents also had their own adult interests, went on dates at least once a week and even took trips without the kids, too. I loved seeing them get dressed up to go out. It looked like they were in-love and it made me happy that they wanted to be with each other. I didn’t feel deprived because of that – I felt free and safe. As far as the clams? I think I was at least a pre-adolescent before I had my first one. Maybe that’s where my deprivation comes from?
First of all, let me clarify something – I am raising two lovely, loving, creative, well-behaved children, now ages 6 and almost 10, and also, as a psychotherapist for 30 years, I have worked wth countless numbers of children and families. I love children and children love me. (Many parents are amazed when their little ones who usually suffer from stranger anxiety stop crying and start smiling in my presence.) My strong postings on this blog are not coming from any kind of stereotyped “child-hating” place at all, but rather quite the opposite. It is parents towards whom my ire is directed, not the kids.
I urge everyone who has the courage to see the movie “Little Children” with Kate Winslet. It is a chilling, stunningly realistic portrayal of the damage done when parents refuse to grow up and as such are overly identified with, indulgent of, and otherwise symbiotically enmeshed with their children. At every turn, and in every variation imaginable, the film portrays a small town, not unlike Park Slope in many aspects, in which everyone is basically a child.
Do a head count. How many parents do you know who allowed and still allow their child well into and past infancy to sleep in the marital bed? How many mothers do you know who breast-fed long after the child had a full set of teeth? How many couples with children do you know who bemoan not having a good sex life anymore “because of the kids?” Need I go on? This is not just about my peace and quiet in an adult setting like a clam bar or coffee shop. It’s just as much about the well-being of the kids who need real grown-ups as parents.
You still don’t get it. The simple act of letting your child play on the ground, unless she’s playing on the ground in the cornfield 100 yards away, bothers other diners. Restaurants are for eating, not playing. Take your kids to McDonald’s playland.
Ok, ok, enough already. I am not a narcissist – and I don’t feel entitled to anything becausse I have a child. I don’t mind that The Clam Bar has the “condition” of keeping your children seated, I mind that the waitress was rude and told us that we would be kicked out… My daughter was not creating a disturbance. She was sitting quietly on the ground, after all it is an outdoor restaurant, and playing with the “dirty’ pebbles. I do understand that children can create a disturbance for other diners and I would be the first to leave an establishment if my daughter was running wildly, disturbing other people by crying or screaming. And I do understand that The Clam Bar is in the precarious position of being off a busy highway. They could create some sort of fence, if they were worried about safety.
By the way, Lobster Roll is incredibly family friendly. The waitresses are really professionals and know how to deal with children. I did not see any child “misbeheaving” over there. So please, enough haranquing about narcissistic behavior.
Typical self indulgent whining soccer mom behavior. How you’re raising your child can only reflect on how you were raised. I, for one, was raised such that when we went to restaurants, we sat in our seats, ate our meals, had a wonderful time, and left. During that meal, we talked as a family, and played fun but quiet games together. For some reason, many parents feel so self-entitled that they think that simply because they made the choice to have children, they have the right to destroy the dining experience (same for parks, sidewalks, stores, etc) of every single person around them. Going out to dinner with your friends, dragging your kid along, and then ignoring them while they play Romper Room in the restaurant, is the opposite of good parenting. You’re simply treating them as an accessory, not as a child that needs raised properly. In the last two days here in East Hampton, I’ve walked out of both cittanuova and Turtle Crossing because both restaurants were allowing parents like you to let their kids treat the restaurants as surrogate playrooms. I, for one, am heading to the Clam Shack today for lunch. May more restaurants learn from their example. If you want to drag your kids to the Hamptons, fine, but don’t inflict your agita on me.
I guess Mr. Munoz has issues.
Drunk semi-retarded suburbanites? I thought that, oh never mind. He wouldn’t get it.
Clam Bar’s a decent place. They set the rules, and at least have the cojones to enforce them.
Having toddlers underfoot is OK at a family picnic.
But when it comes to a licensed establishment with liability insurance, people tend to get a bit strict.
What do you expect from some trashy Montauk shit-hole? If kids were that big a problem, EVERY restaurant would have some similar legalese rule on the menu. The fact is, kids are usually ok, and most restaurants are able to accommodate their presence without the whole world exploding and 15 beers going flying.
My guess? The place is run by drunk, semi-retarded suburbanites (like there’s any other kind) who were molested when they were young. Thus, the issues. Diaper Diva should have taken a crap in the clam fryer, IMHO.
-Edward
I worked at the Clam Bar on and off for 14 years. I never once had a safety problem with a dog owner, they understand that although the restaurant is outside that does not make it a dog park. I did however have COUNTLESS problems with parents allowing their children to roam the dining area and parking lots unattended as if the restaurant were a day care center or a public park. The staff takes the majority of the burns and falls to avoid an out of control child but there were many times I swerved and burned patrons (and a few children). Let me tell you, chowder is hot but steamer broth is something else entirely, wow that’ll put the fear of a moving waitress in ya.
I’ll never forget dropping about 15 bottled beers directly onto patrons heads due to a misbehaved child- the noise, beer and bottles flying, glass in peoples hair, the shocked pause, and then the moment they realized it was their fault and had been asked 3 times to control the boy, oh what great drama.
But what is truly sickening is the parents who let their children sit on the floor next to the table and play in the gravel pebbles covering the restaurant floor. How disgusting to watch little kids touching those rocks- dirty gravel bits with cigarette butts, bits of lobster shells, food, grease and who knows what from the kitchen floor building up all day. It’s especially sick for the staff to watch this behavior, the gravel is picked though and hosed off the nightly but ug, it’s still a restaurant floor and not a sandbox.
I was burned many times on my calves and ankles by cigarettes but the smokers ALWAYS apologized to me. The parents of children seldom apologize or admit that the child was not being minded, instead they usually become irate that a WAITRESS would so dare to question their parenting skills. And these are the same people that are so out of it that they didn’t even see the incident or even know where the kid was! I’ve found 4 and 5 year olds wandering the parking lot unattended with SUVS backing up next to them, yelled, pulled the child back to the dining room and not even been able to figure out whose kid they are! And then the parents are rude and dismissive when you beg them to behave. I mean this is almost a daily occurrence, it boggles the mind.
Personally, I would much rather eat at a business such as the Clam Bar than many Park Slope places that cater to stay at home moms/dads and the like. I’m tired of stepping over “parked” strollers to get to the counter of a coffee shop. Your children are just that. Please respect the fact that not everyone enjoys your children as much as you do.
It’s not the letter of the rule, it’s the spirit that should count. For a restaraunt to ask politely that children be in seats is reasonable, but it seems that the Clam Bar was way overreacting.
As is Peter Lofreddo…get a grip on yourself, man! What a ridiculous statement to make…”why was Ducky there?”…maybe because they’re on a family vacation? Perhaps something you missed out on growing up? And also eating clams when you were a toddler?
A sensible policy perhaps, but enforced a little rudely and with contempt. I will not go there with or without my “little future narcissists”
Dear Diaper Diva – Ugh! You may believe that it’s okay for your little future narcissist to grow up believing that wherever she goes, whatever she does, the world will be glad to serve her, but in so doing, you are not, in the truest sense of parenting, serving her. One of the most difficult and essential parts of growing up in a social world is learning that your impulses and desires must respectfully dovetail with those of others, including those living in the adult world. Little children generally don’t eat clams – a bit much for their digestion – so why was Ducky there? Because you feel too guilty to leave her with a babysitter, erroneously thinking that the quality of her upbringing is directly in proportion to the amount of time she spends with you – in any environment? Wrong. That’s your ego. Understanding that adults have privileges in the world that children don’t inspires kids to want to grow up, rather than remaining immature and orally demanding… as if the world was truly their – forgive me – oyster. Come on, DD. Let Ducky grow up.
Good for them for having the backbone to stick to a sensible policy clearly stated in the menu. You’re probably right that this wouldn’t happen in Park Slope, but I’m not sure indulgence of entitled parents is a good thing.
Good for the Clam Bar.
Some sense of order is necessary when you’ve got an outdoor restaurant next to a 60 mph straightaway. They don’t want to see anyone hurt. Or some waitstaff tripping over a kid.
Guess you can’t take some out of the over-indulgent, entitled Slope …
Time for http://www.therudehamptons.com … or at least The Beach …
I had some bad clams once and also mussels, and boyardee did that lay me out cold for a whole two whole days.
Maybe they should open a Clam Broth House in Park Slope, and let the kids laugh and run around like Crazy. But becareful with the clams and all shelfish, cause hepatitias aint a laughing and running around matter whatever else happens.
Before I play any game, I read the rules. Sometimes they are a bit onerous, and other times quite loose. In this case Diaper Diva, I have to side with the Clam Bar. They wrote the rulebook, and you didn’t play by the local rules. So if you like clam Bars so much, next time find a friendly one. Sammy’s Clam Box on City Island, is a good one for example. The beach isnt as good as the Hamptons, but the clams are of similar or better quality. I hope this is helpful, cause I love clams too.